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There’s a book in progress now (it’s over 100 pages–that makes it a book in progress) It is not (alas for Paksworld fans who don’t like my other stuff) a Paksworld book. What Robin McKinley calls her Story Council (determining what she can write next) I call my Plot Daemon. The Plot Daemon shot down several previous book starts in the past year, some Paksworld and some not, but finally got steam up in the old Inchcliffe Castle* when I quit handing him ideas and said (with all the ire of a frustrated writer) “Fine, then: What do YOU want to do for the next year?”
He walked off, grumpy as usual, but I followed him around, “Tell me!” Finally he said “That idea you had for a Vatta book–sappy, stupid. What really happened was…” And then it started. Slow, because I kept trying to drag it back to something similar I’d been thinking about for two or three years. Then I gave up. It moved a little faster. Then I said “Somebody’s missing here…who needs to be here?” and the answer was obvious. So now it’s moving right along. So far, though I’ve had books go dead on me, I’ve never had one die after passing the 75 page mark. Let alone 113, which is where it is right now. Granted, it’s still under 25,000 words, but it’s got way too much plot complexity already to be a novella. It’s headed over 100K, probably–like the other Vatta books–but nowhere near the length of the Paksworld books. IF I get a contract on it, that is. There’s no feel of a long-arc that will lead right into other books–a group. It feels–right now–like a singleton, and I don’t know if Publisher will be willing to go with that. OTOH, given my track record for underestimating final lengths…it might be more than one. Or another oddity may demand to be written before the deep prequel set in Old Aare that I think may be the next Paksworld book. Cracolnya’s story is hung, right now–it’s alive, but it’s not progressing though I poke it at least twice a week. I think I just need some time writing something else for a bit.
What this means is that there won’t be a Paksworld novel for a few years–even if this one continues at the present rate, I won’t finish it before next summer (and that’s if all goes swimmingly.) There will be Paksworld short fiction. That e-book, first. Then “Mercenary’s Honor” in an anthology in the spring. And a second e-book of Pakworld stories.
In the meantime, this will also be an opportunity to work on those other Paksworld related projects–finishing the map, extending it into Old Aare and into the west, maybe even mapping that part of the continent across the Eastern Ocean where humans have lived. The pronunciation guide, the complete character list, all that. Writing the somewhat shorter book will mean fewer 18 hour days, leaving more time for the other. I hope you folks will keep up conversations here. I will be asking for reader help from time to time as I try to set up the references I’ll need to go deeper and farther.
And for those who do like my space opera/military SF, the new Vatta book is already full of adventure, intrigue, political skullduggery, and drops Ky once more into a problem she’s never confronted before. And other people into problems they’ve never confronted before. I sorta-kinda want to start a blog related to that group of books (because it’s been such fun having readers to interact with here on the Paks books as I wrote them) but I’m neglecting two other blogs right now, so…don’t want to drop this one to be active in that one. OTOH, the Vatta books weren’t as demanding (because shorter, among other things) as I wrote them. Small spoiler for it: shuttle ditching in very cold ocean with the nearest land inhospitable and all communications not working.
Progress on the e-book continues. I’ve seen a first mock-up of the new cover and like it; there will be some minor changes and when I see the final I’ll post an image. Cover copy (which I’m lousy at) is in work. I’ll be posting here about progress on the e-book, progress of short Paksworld fiction, and progress on NewBook (which has no title…there may be a contest…)
Comment by Karma — October 26, 2014 @ 7:48 pm
Fabulous — can’t wait! Best of luck with it.
Comment by PrahaPartizan — October 26, 2014 @ 8:11 pm
It’s been way past time for an addition to the Vatta series too. I’m looking forward to the further development of this industrial-political intrigue. Keep’em coming.
Comment by David Watson — October 26, 2014 @ 9:28 pm
Awrighht! Another Vata book: I’ve been rather expecting as much. Looking forward to hints and tidbits, and as usual I’m prepared to offer livingroom brainstorming. My own story just added 900 words today after a week-long hiatus. Probably more tomorrow! Wheee!
Comment by Ed Bunyan — October 26, 2014 @ 9:51 pm
If you need to aim for the stars for your next book, then I say light the fuse and go for it! Can’t wait to read the adventure.
Comment by Amy — October 27, 2014 @ 1:13 am
Hooray! For all of this!!!!!
Comment by Marian — October 27, 2014 @ 1:23 am
Yes!
Um .. havent you well satisfied the Publishers request for more Paksworld? I remember the request was for a trilogy? So there have been ?5 Arent you allowed a little leeway now? (hehe) Its not like you’re a beginner any more 🙂
Comment by Jonathan Schor — October 27, 2014 @ 6:21 am
No rush – I know what ever you write it will be written well. Write what you want within the limits of the commercial side of the business.
I hope that you are no longer writing just to put food on the table – in any case, have fun.
Comment by elizabeth — October 27, 2014 @ 7:06 am
Jonathan: On the one hand, I write because…I write. Always have, starting when I could first form coherent sentences. (Not coherent stories or nonfiction pieces–not for years and years, and even then not good stories or nonfiction. I wasn’t a child prodigy.) On the other hand, I do write to put food on the table. It’s what I can do (especially now) that makes money. So most of the writing I do must produce income: it must be finished work of a certain standard that will satisfy someone enough that the someone will pay for it. As you say “within the limits of the commercial side of the business.” Luckily, I do enjoy some of the things I can write within those limits. I’d be in a world of hurt if all I enjoyed was writing poetry.
Comment by elizabeth — October 27, 2014 @ 7:19 am
Marian: To answer the last question first, the answer is no. All that matters to publishers is “the numbers” and whether you are reliable in your delivery of work that delivers the numbers and not too painful to work with. Leeway is for sometime in last century, and what counts as leeway has tightened considerably. I’ve had the leeway available a few times. Publishing is, after all, a business with a bottom line that must be met.
Backing through the questions (mule-like, perhaps?) The new Paks series was not a request of the publisher, but a proposal by me that suited an editor now retired. The publisher would much rather have me writing space opera/military SF: my numbers were higher for the Vatta books, and when I more than three volumes to finish Paladin’s Legacy I was told firmly that I would have to get it done in two more, not anything over that. To put it as mildly as possible, there’s a gendered expectation for epic fantasy that makes it much easier to market epic fantasy by men than epic fantasy by women–and as a result, the numbers conform to expectations and the expectations harden. When I turned the last volume in, I was told that they’d be delighted to see more Vatta-type books.
Comment by Iphinome — October 27, 2014 @ 8:22 am
Men write fantasy? *Checks her bookshelf* Are you sure about that?
@David Watson but it isn’t even November yet. *Sniff* Some people are content to just keep tweaking their outlines for a few more days.
Comment by elizabeth — October 27, 2014 @ 10:57 am
122 pages now on the new book. And some time spent on research. One of the mind-refreshing things is being yanked back into science journals for the research instead of history/economics/psychology etc. I like both.
What won’t appear in the book, except in brief mentions is the terraforming of Slotter Key. But I have to understand it. How do you transform a planet with *this*, into a planet with *that*? (And back to economics–why would you, and who paid for it? In what economic system is it feasible to spend what it would take to terraform a planet you couldn’t use for another 2000 years? Don’t worry–I figured that part out this morning, along with writing several more pages of story.)
I’ve found some fascinating stuff on the timescale of speciation following mass extinctions on this planet, on modelling far more complex systems than I dealt with in graduate school, and have talked over with R- how timescales might be compressed under certain circumstances. I’ve looked again at my book on Surtsey (an early study of the biological invasions on a new volcanic island) for succession. Journal of Biogeography has some good stuff (I haven’t subscribed, but found some older articles online.) Lab memories are coming back to me…they weren’t really buried, I just hadn’t thought about our soil bacteria project in quite awhile.
Also in this one is a continuing undercurrent of humodification: how biomedicine can transform bodies (which include minds) for various purposes. It was there in the first Vatta books, as well as in the Serrano-Suiza books, but it’s somewhat more prominent in this one. Different journals for that part. Others for spaceflight proper. The geek side is getting its sugar fix.
Comment by Jonathan Schor — October 27, 2014 @ 12:03 pm
I am appalled that there is a prejudice concerning the type of book they want you to write because of your gender. If your name won’t sell, do as Ms. CJ Cherryh did and just use initials – or have a completely different name entirely.
Also, while you may not have the gold Cadillac, I would think that as a successful author by now you would have a decent income.
I guess that everyone makes money except the creative artist in no matter what field – or I have become cynical in my old age.
Comment by Annabel — October 27, 2014 @ 12:14 pm
Sounds good. But one of the reasons – probably the main reason – that I like all that you write is that you have the knack of making us care about your characters. I sat up all night reading one of your Herris Serrano novels, even though I already knew how it must end, having read a sequel! I’ve only read one of your Vatta novels so far, but again, I cared about Ky and wanted her to succeed against all the odds….
Comment by Annabel — October 27, 2014 @ 12:15 pm
Damn, I pressed “Enter” without making my main point, which is that whether you are writing space opera or epic fantasy – both of which are fun to read in their own ways – it is the characters that make it believable and interesting and page-turning.
Comment by nigel — October 27, 2014 @ 1:22 pm
Great news about Vatta – as its a series that I wanted more books in.
While for the Paks series you have left it for at least one Arc for Dorin as well
Comment by elizabeth — October 27, 2014 @ 1:24 pm
Jonathan, gender perceptions invade everything. It’s not new. I was first told that the DEED couldn’t be any good because a) women couldn’t write about the military and b) it had a female protagonist and women couldn’t be real soldiers. By more than one editor/publisher. Somewhere in my files, if I didn’t finally throw it out, is a letter from Lester Del Rey. A good life is the best revenge for all of them.
Every woman writer has been told what she can’t write or shouldn’t write because she’s female. We fight for covers that are not too “romance-like” and sometimes we lose. Remember _Kings of the North_? And you luckily never saw the original cover for _Crown of Renewal_. This is SOP for women who write outside the box. People keep trying to find the right “ladies'” box to shut us into.
My name _does_ sell–but if you look at the various online sites that put up lists of epic fantasy or space opera, it’s very rare to find any woman’s name on it, including mine. Just recently another one of those “if you like this, you might like” lists came out, with LOTR as the “if you” starter. All the books underneath were written by men…men who already had name recognition. If your name is always in the recommended lists, more people will buy your book–that simple. Women are not in those lists as often, and you even find people claiming (because we’re not in the lists) that we don’t write whatever the genre is.
I’m one of the lucky ones. I have some name recognition. I have enough readers to support me and my family. But a male writer with my books behind him–with the success I’ve had–would be perceived differently. I still get asked if my books are in bookstores, if I self-published, if they’re really romances with just the trappings of SF/F (one reason non-romancey covers are so important to women writers.) I still get asked if I actually know anything about the military. Not by the people who read my books, but by the ones who are quite happy to say “I never heard of you–are you a REAL writer?” I still get mansplained at about the writing business by bozos who haven’t ever published a book and want to tell me it’s all my own fault if I’m not selling more because women just don’t know how to write to please men.
One of the things that happens when you get older is that you can see the historical context of what you’re living in…and what I see is that more than fifty years after a calculus prof whom I’d asked to recommend a tutor told me that in his experience “girls” couldn’t learn calculus, we are still having these conversations: women are still being told they don’t belong in engineering or science or science journalism or videogaming or in law school or in surgery residencies or in some military unit or in the Presidency. I still see my 50 year old ex-mercenary officer, now a duke of the realm, depicted in a low-cut red gown with her ringlets disposed down her back and Angelina Jolie lush lips…and why? Because female writer, female character, surely it’s a romance.
Yes, this is too ranty. But I stand by what I am. Being a woman does not constrain my interests or my skills (personal choice may) and being a woman writer does not mean I “should” be satisfied with a smaller slice of the pie, or with assumptions about my work based on my body parts. I won’t hide who I am. I take the potshots and the mansplaining and the criticism as it comes, damning the torpedoes and going straight on anyway.
And I’m not mad at you, just to make that clear. Just that you happened to knock the top off the bottle under pressure.
Comment by Wickersham's Conscience — October 27, 2014 @ 1:38 pm
Andre Norton, Anne McCaffery, C.J. Cherryh, Misty Lackey, Rosemarie Kirstein and even that British woman, something Rowling, and there’s still gender barriers to science fiction and fantasy? Doesn’t speak well for the industry. And, yes, the industry-imposed sappy covers are annoying. But stupid and annoying covers have always been the hallmark of science fiction and fantasy. I tell my non-SF reader friends you buy the books in spite of the covers.
I’m delighted you are writing a new book and that it is going well. I do prefer Paksworld, but any Moon novel or short story is worth my money. I look forward to reading it.
Comment by Gareth — October 27, 2014 @ 1:39 pm
Surprised and disappointed at the gender bias of publishers. I think ALL my favorite fantasy writers are female or male/female partnership. Others I’m thinking in no particular order, Andre Norton, Zenna Henderson (just re-reading now), Mercedes Lackey (also in partnership with James Mallory), Sharon Lee (with and without Steve Miller). Of course there is debate whether some fantasy is fantasy or SF. Anne Mccaffrey could be regarded as either IMO.
Comment by Daniel Glover — October 27, 2014 @ 3:08 pm
We could just call it, “The Chronicles of Paksenarrion’s World … and other writings of Elizabeth Moon.” Then you could keep everything here in one spot.
Not that I’ve had any time to work on it from the original link passed around, but I would like to see the pronunciation guide finished so I could say the words as you meant them to sound.
Thank you Elizabeth, and please do keep writing what ever the PD leads you towards. That has seemed to work well.
Comment by Jonathan Schor — October 27, 2014 @ 6:27 pm
I am not sorry you had to rave – I have a real interest in fighting this wasteful prejudice. Not only does it waste half of our resources, but all I have are two girl children and one girl grandchild. I strongly dislike anything which limits them. You have touched a nerve.
Comment by patrick — October 28, 2014 @ 12:55 pm
Publishers are self-limiting on the topic of women fantasy writers. It’s a surprise to me as my early discovery of Ms. Moon and other female fantasy authors has kept me informed of the category without conscious attention. In a quick perusal of my personal library, I quickly found a dozen female authors of quality who have written more than five fantasy books. Some old school from my youth, some modern, first published in the last decade.
Hard to know how to ‘fix’ the situation with publishers, but we each should do what we can where we can, perhaps by making a conscious effort to writing favorable reviews of works we particularly like, perhaps by other methods.
Comment by Tuftears — October 28, 2014 @ 2:12 pm
Looking forward to new Vatta book. ^_^
I’m only aware of this blog and your LJ; there’s another blog?
Comment by elizabeth — October 28, 2014 @ 10:35 pm
Tuftears: I have two nearly inactive blogs for other projects, one for The Speed of Dark and one for the 80 acres wildlife management project. Once I got deep into Paladin’s Legacy, I simply could not keep up a regular posting schedule on them, in addition to this and the books themselves. Links off my main website.
Patrick: writing favorable reviews is definitely helpful. So is contributing suggestions of woman-written books when people are talking about a genre/subgenre, or proposing lists. And asking in bookstores–if 90% of the writers you see on a bookstore list is male, suggest they add some women, and offer suggestions. If bookstores do not have a clerk with expertise in SF/F, the clerks may not even know there are any women who write it (or who read it, for that matter.)
Comment by Linda — October 29, 2014 @ 12:06 pm
Gnashing of teeth is heard in the land … women can’t write fantasy or SF ???? Mary Shelley’s Frankenstein, and what about Ursula LeGuin and Madeline L’Engle? They hooked me long ago. Mary Stewart and Susan Cooper? Give me a break! The best military historical fiction I’ve ever read was written by Rosemary Sutcliff who made you think she spent her life hunting wolves, sailing with Vikings, fighting as a gladiator … etc.
I’d say those publishers should take a few courses in young adult literature, with special emphasis on its history. I dare say folks with a background in literature are few and far between in publishing. Of course I’m prejudiced, I find much fantasy by men boring: too many power struggles, too little self awareness on the part of the characters, too much plot, too much alike.
Thank goodness for you and the other brilliant women writing SF and fantasy … my reading life would be impoverished without your work.
Comment by Tuftears — October 29, 2014 @ 12:48 pm
Thanks! You have always been one of my favoritest authors. ^_^
Comment by Genko — October 29, 2014 @ 3:38 pm
Yay, Vatta! Recently re-read them all in order, and loved them, wanted more, of course. One thing I enjoy about your fiction is that there are always unanswered questions, loose ends, even at the end with some resolution. That is, you don’t tie everything up neatly. It’s more like life, though more satisfying at times.
Yeah, the women writer thing sucks. I find I really do prefer women writers, and will definitely go for them over male writers when I have a choice. It’s not just political correctness of an old feminist, it’s that I relate to the characters and plot better. Seems more fully developed, almost always. Or, it may be that for a woman to get published at all, she has to be 5 times better than men writers. Not sure. But it’s a known phenomenon. Sorry to hear it’s still so pervasive.
Comment by Richard — October 30, 2014 @ 4:15 pm
This afternoon I looked into my local Waterstones bookstore to make a rough count in its SF&F section: 50 women authors.
Comment by Marian — October 30, 2014 @ 4:57 pm
So women cant write fantasy … so how can they write space opera, which has just as much fighting and war-related motifs? I would have thought not being able to write hard core sci-fi would be a more natural prejudice. Weird logic there … . You could always have submitted it under a male name of course, or something suitably non-gender specific.
However, they wanted Vatta, they are getting Vatta 🙂
Comment by Carolyn — October 31, 2014 @ 5:10 am
Fantastic – love your Vatta books. Glad you are enjoying exploring and writing that character/world again. Your energy and enthusiasm is contagious. Thank you!
Comment by rkduk — November 1, 2014 @ 4:31 pm
Outside my collection of favorites (which includes Vatta and Paks and The Speed of Dark), I rarely look at a writer’s name until/unless I pause in the middle thinking “this is really good” (or the opposite) and turn to the title page to see if it’s a name I know. But names alone don’t tell much. There are female Ryans, Michaels, Dales, and Sams, and male Leslies, Kims, Maries, and Carols. My subconscious has its own leanings, but they can be elbowed aside in favor of a good story.
Isn’t it amazing how auditions done behind a curtain give more gender-balanced orchestras? And without quotas, no less!
Comment by Suburbanbanshee — November 1, 2014 @ 5:31 pm
If it’s any comfort… I follow a lot of writers’ blogs and blogs about writers. And male writers seem to get just as many stupid comments about their male writing abilities and maleness that won’t sell, and there are plenty of well-known male writers with great sales who get stupid questions.
Basically the problem is (A) gatekeepers and (B) stupid people. Rude stupid people.
Publishers occasionally know something useful and anecdotal about sales, but the Big Five don’t actually do accurate accounts and databases and sales measures. They don’t know how much is selling, or where, or when, or even what they owe what people. They just keep throwing spaghetti at the wall in a way not permitted in any other kind of business.
So I’m pretty sure they don’t know that epic fantasy by women doesn’t sell, or what authors are an exception, or what kinds of marketing work and don’t work and how well. What they have is a vague feeling about stuff, or something they were told to tell you by somebody else.
Comment by Suburbanbanshee — November 1, 2014 @ 5:38 pm
Obviously you want to nod and go along with the publisher that you’re working with, and I’m glad it goes with what you want to write. But actually believing what’s said by publishers about what readers will buy is like believing Ford and GM in 1980 saying that nobody wants to buy Japanese cars. They don’t know that, they probably don’t want to know that, and it has more to do with corporate politics than factual info or accurate, exact sales numbers. It took me forever to find your book anywhere in physical form, and that had a lot bigger influence on your Crown sales to readers than your reproductive equipment or the genre you’re writing.
Believe in yourself and your talents. Believe that people want to read your books.
Do what you have to do with business and art. But don’t believe any BS factoids.
Comment by Fred — November 3, 2014 @ 11:42 pm
So…
The “Spoilers” page is now moved back, and there have been no new comments for a while.
When do you want to open up discussion without that label?
(This question is only here because it’s the top listing, and it sort-of, kind-of fits).
Thanks!
Comment by elizabeth — November 4, 2014 @ 12:03 am
Good point, Fred. Will post.
Comment by Angela — November 4, 2014 @ 8:04 pm
Yay… more Vatta books!!! She was kind of left hanging… plenty more of her career to be explored!!! Hurray… and yay… more Paksworld. Can’t wait for more “real” books! I haven’t yet been sucked into the e-book void… will hang tough on my paper books for as long as possible! Please, write more… knit less socks!!! All the extra socks are in my laundry basket… waiting to be matched and folded!!!!!!
Comment by elizabeth — November 4, 2014 @ 8:35 pm
Angela: I write as much as I can. Knitting helps the writing, and your socks probably wouldn’t fit me. Most don’t.
Nadine: I’m your kind of reader except that there are times I forego sleep to finish in one gulp because I just have to.
Marit: Will title posts to indicate what fiction is under discussion.
Everyone: “Creeping toward having a release date” and yes, the cover art is the holdup at this point.
Comment by Mary Elmore Kellogg Cowart — November 5, 2014 @ 1:53 pm
I am glad that another Vatta novel is in the works. I liked it before I even started reading in Paksworld.
I read the Serrano series and the Vatta series before I started reading the Paksworld books. I hesitated reading Paksworld because it was fantasy and not science fiction, not because the author was a woman.
I also read the Sassinak (Generation Warriors) series because I liked the cover, not necessarily the author.
I started the Serrano series because I liked the cover of Winning Colors (horse and rider with spaceship and planet in the background) and noticed it was in a series and bought it and the previous books in the series and read them in order.
I am about your age. [I also like the Outlander series by Diana Gabaldon. I thought I would never read the series because it was a “romance” novel, I had somewhat of a “Victorian” upbringing. It is so much more.]
Comment by Ken — November 5, 2014 @ 9:39 pm
When I find a book I like by any author, I’ll usually read more, regardless of their sex or even the genre they’re writing in. So far, I’ve enjoyed all of the Elizabeth Moon fiction I’ve read, and I’ve read as much as I could find because it’s consistently well written.
I also like works by Roger Zelazny, Mercedes Lackey, Anne McCaffrey, Greg Bear and Tony Hillerman. I consistently enjoy reading their work, so I get more of it (when I can).
So… if Elizabeth Moon wrote a mystery novel or a romance novel, or some other random thing, there’s a good chance that I would buy it and read it. It wouldn’t be because she’s a woman or a man, or what’s on the cover, or any factor other than that I’ve enjoyed all the other stuff she’s written that I’ve read.
Comment by Cindy — November 15, 2014 @ 9:00 pm
Vatta! My second favorite series of yours, yay! So can’t wait already, though I’m also looking forward to more Paksworld stuff.