Comments on: Old Soldiers http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474 Wed, 08 Sep 2010 13:57:54 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: elizabeth http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474&cpage=1#comment-3584 elizabeth Mon, 16 Nov 2009 00:25:24 +0000 http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474#comment-3584 The Greek poet Theognis wrote, over 2000 years ago, that peace nourished the farmer even on the rocky mountain, but war impoverished the farmer even in the fertile plain. War is brutal, cruel, destructive to people, possessions, animals, and land...and very, very expensive. It is also ubiquitous in human history, with very few exceptions (and those cultures were rarely free of violence--they just lacked the resources and organization for war.) Most wars that we know of--that we have enough facts about--were started for stupid reasons, though the defensive response may have been necessary for survival. Fear makes lousy decisions. One war-driver is population growth, but every side is convinced that its population is the one that should prevail. At the very least, anyone proposing a war should have absorbed a lot of the lessons of history (I can think of those who shrugged off the lessons of history as irrelevant...), should have a very clear view of the cost (monetary, psychological, etc, etc.) of war. Most such people don't, and that's not just Americans. The Greek poet Theognis wrote, over 2000 years ago, that peace nourished the farmer even on the rocky mountain, but war impoverished the farmer even in the fertile plain.

War is brutal, cruel, destructive to people, possessions, animals, and land…and very, very expensive. It is also ubiquitous in human history, with very few exceptions (and those cultures were rarely free of violence–they just lacked the resources and organization for war.)

Most wars that we know of–that we have enough facts about–were started for stupid reasons, though the defensive response may have been necessary for survival. Fear makes lousy decisions. One war-driver is population growth, but every side is convinced that its population is the one that should prevail.

At the very least, anyone proposing a war should have absorbed a lot of the lessons of history (I can think of those who shrugged off the lessons of history as irrelevant…), should have a very clear view of the cost (monetary, psychological, etc, etc.) of war. Most such people don’t, and that’s not just Americans.

]]> By: Elizabeth D. http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474&cpage=1#comment-3581 Elizabeth D. Sun, 15 Nov 2009 22:52:33 +0000 http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474#comment-3581 My father-in-law died in 2003, and was a veteran of WWII and Korea. He was decorated, and had served in the Philippines in the liberation force. He had started to show signs of Alzheimer's, but in September of 2001 the symptoms became acute: in his assisted living home in Brooklyn, he tried to rescue the residents because he thought "the enemy" was coming through the doors. It was quite a burden to carry. He and his brother had both served in the South Pacific, and they were both very much against the wars in Vietnam and the Gulf war, because they believed those wars were aggressive and political, not defensive, and also because they felt that their family had already given in WWII and earlier wars. They also didn't like the body counts of Vietnam, or firing on retreating soldiers in the Gulf war, which violated common sense. After WWII and Korea, as civilians, they did not vote for anybody who would put us into a war, but that didn't stop the politicians at the top. My father-in-law also wondered what we were protecting, the U.S. or special interests, such as oil, or shipping routes for big business. He only lost his opinions when his memory went. When he died, he was buried in one of the National cemeteries, near his brother who had died only a few months before him. We were very satisfied with the honor guard and short ceremony at the cemetery, and it was an honor to be present. I have always thanked veterans for their service, but I agree with my father-in-law about how war is conducted. My father-in-law died in 2003, and was a veteran of WWII and Korea. He was decorated, and had served in the Philippines in the liberation force. He had started to show signs of Alzheimer’s, but in September of 2001 the symptoms became acute: in his assisted living home in Brooklyn, he tried to rescue the residents because he thought “the enemy” was coming through the doors. It was quite a burden to carry. He and his brother had both served in the South Pacific, and they were both very much against the wars in Vietnam and the Gulf war, because they believed those wars were aggressive and political, not defensive, and also because they felt that their family had already given in WWII and earlier wars. They also didn’t like the body counts of Vietnam, or firing on retreating soldiers in the Gulf war, which violated common sense. After WWII and Korea, as civilians, they did not vote for anybody who would put us into a war, but that didn’t stop the politicians at the top. My father-in-law also wondered what we were protecting, the U.S. or special interests, such as oil, or shipping routes for big business. He only lost his opinions when his memory went.

When he died, he was buried in one of the National cemeteries, near his brother who had died only a few months before him. We were very satisfied with the honor guard and short ceremony at the cemetery, and it was an honor to be present. I have always thanked veterans for their service, but I agree with my father-in-law about how war is conducted.

]]> By: elizabeth http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474&cpage=1#comment-3475 elizabeth Fri, 13 Nov 2009 03:06:11 +0000 http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474#comment-3475 Kip, my current position is "How does society treat those who are powerless to prevent bad treatment?" Veterans, especially those wounded; prisoners; children; the disabled; foreigners; the "different." When it's "safe" to mistreat an individual or a group...does society do it, or play fair? Kip, my current position is “How does society treat those who are powerless to prevent bad treatment?” Veterans, especially those wounded; prisoners; children; the disabled; foreigners; the “different.” When it’s “safe” to mistreat an individual or a group…does society do it, or play fair?

]]> By: elizabeth http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474&cpage=1#comment-3474 elizabeth Fri, 13 Nov 2009 03:02:39 +0000 http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474#comment-3474 It's interesting, the situations in which veterans sometimes recognize one another without having said anything obvious before then. On the eve of the first Gulf War, I was traveling, and found that in the airport reserves still in civvies headed for their assignments, active duty personnel, and us veterans were all locking eyes and giving each other mental acknowledgment. I think the lack of desire for 'gratitude' is, at least in part, revulsion at the way it's been fulsomely handed out by politicians making political hay. And we didn't do it for the gratitude, though yeah, the respect is really nice. What nomilitary need to understand is that in our system, it's the civilians who decide which wars to send us to...so if they don't like what they did, they should look in the mirror. It’s interesting, the situations in which veterans sometimes recognize one another without having said anything obvious before then. On the eve of the first Gulf War, I was traveling, and found that in the airport reserves still in civvies headed for their assignments, active duty personnel, and us veterans were all locking eyes and giving each other mental acknowledgment.

I think the lack of desire for ‘gratitude’ is, at least in part, revulsion at the way it’s been fulsomely handed out by politicians making political hay. And we didn’t do it for the gratitude, though yeah, the respect is really nice. What nomilitary need to understand is that in our system, it’s the civilians who decide which wars to send us to…so if they don’t like what they did, they should look in the mirror.

]]> By: Patrick http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474&cpage=1#comment-3472 Patrick Fri, 13 Nov 2009 02:30:20 +0000 http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474#comment-3472 I was recently on a week-long meditation retreat. I've never been a visible veteran. I don't think Vietnam veterans tend to be. But there was a fellow there that I hung with who is also a Vietnam vet, and it became a topic of conversation. This other fellow, at some point, thanked me for serving in Viet Nam. I was dumbfounded. So dumbfounded I gave him the finger. (wonder he didn't punch me) But I thought he was goofing on me. Probably all the sitting meditation. The thing about the accidental, citizen warrior is, I don't really want gratitude for having served in a war... but I appreciate the respect for having served. That's what I thought I was doing when I was 19, serving my country. Now the fact that it wasn't a Good War? At the age of 62, I'm not sure there is such a thing. And soldiers know that better than anyone, especially better than the politicians. I was recently on a week-long meditation retreat. I’ve never been a visible veteran. I don’t think Vietnam veterans tend to be. But there was a fellow there that I hung with who is also a Vietnam vet, and it became a topic of conversation. This other fellow, at some point, thanked me for serving in Viet Nam. I was dumbfounded. So dumbfounded I gave him the finger. (wonder he didn’t punch me) But I thought he was goofing on me. Probably all the sitting meditation.

The thing about the accidental, citizen warrior is, I don’t really want gratitude for having served in a war… but I appreciate the respect for having served. That’s what I thought I was doing when I was 19, serving my country. Now the fact that it wasn’t a Good War? At the age of 62, I’m not sure there is such a thing. And soldiers know that better than anyone, especially better than the politicians.

]]> By: Kip Colegrove http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474&cpage=1#comment-3471 Kip Colegrove Fri, 13 Nov 2009 02:25:44 +0000 http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474#comment-3471 My father was a veteran of combat in the Pacific theater of World War II, and a veteran of many other interesting military experiences. From his manner of serving while on active duty, from his stories, and from the manner of his decline in later years, I formed a simple rule-of-thumb standard for evaluating the heart of a society: how does it treat veterans? (Later I added to this, how does it treat prisoners, especially those with a military and/or political aspect? At present I'm thinking of adding, how does it treat sick people?) My father was a veteran of combat in the Pacific theater of World War II, and a veteran of many other interesting military experiences. From his manner of serving while on active duty, from his stories, and from the manner of his decline in later years, I formed a simple rule-of-thumb standard for evaluating the heart of a society: how does it treat veterans? (Later I added to this, how does it treat prisoners, especially those with a military and/or political aspect? At present I’m thinking of adding, how does it treat sick people?)

]]> By: elizabeth http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474&cpage=1#comment-3454 elizabeth Thu, 12 Nov 2009 05:04:02 +0000 http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474#comment-3454 You're right, Rachel...and I think recent vets are, in recent wars anyway, least likely to want recognition while they're still young. For any given vet, it can change with age, and also with a variety of cultural/political things and personal experience in the war. But I don't think any veteran resents simple respect. I went through some prickly years on this myself...but as time has passed, I am both humbled and grateful for expressions of respect from others, whether vets themselves or not. (Except politicians who are using it as a photo op kind of thing. Ick.) You’re right, Rachel…and I think recent vets are, in recent wars anyway, least likely to want recognition while they’re still young. For any given vet, it can change with age, and also with a variety of cultural/political things and personal experience in the war. But I don’t think any veteran resents simple respect. I went through some prickly years on this myself…but as time has passed, I am both humbled and grateful for expressions of respect from others, whether vets themselves or not. (Except politicians who are using it as a photo op kind of thing. Ick.)

]]> By: Rachel http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474&cpage=1#comment-3451 Rachel Wed, 11 Nov 2009 20:59:52 +0000 http://www.paksworld.com/blog/?p=474#comment-3451 One of the things that makes honoring veterans complicated is that they all feel differently about how they should be honored. My best friend was a marine sniper and served 3 tours in Iraq, and he strongly prefers not to be recognized on Vetren's Day (or in general), while my grandfather who served in WW II appreciates the recognition. This difference in how the veterans feel also influence the reactions of the people around them, which makes the whole situation more complex. I tried to write about the difficulties of veterans dealing with civilians, but it didn't turn out very well. I would like to see what kind of story you could come up with. One of the things that makes honoring veterans complicated is that they all feel differently about how they should be honored. My best friend was a marine sniper and served 3 tours in Iraq, and he strongly prefers not to be recognized on Vetren’s Day (or in general), while my grandfather who served in WW II appreciates the recognition. This difference in how the veterans feel also influence the reactions of the people around them, which makes the whole situation more complex.

I tried to write about the difficulties of veterans dealing with civilians, but it didn’t turn out very well. I would like to see what kind of story you could come up with.

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